Posts by Band on the Run

56

Was the Bible forged? Author claims some New Testament books were written by 'people pretending to be apostles'

by whereami in

was the bible forged?

author claims some new testament books were written by 'people pretending to be apostles'.

by daily mail reporter.

Band on the Run

I see several strands going on in this thread. Some believe the Bible is inerrant. Others like Ehrmann's bold statements that I suspect make him an easier read than a scholarly article. If scholarly articles are never read b/c of the style, they don't help many people. My view is in the strand that Paul wrote Romans, Corinithians, and a few others I can't recall specifically. He did not write the books where he is the most miscogynistic or contain the statements that made me want to vomit from Witness repetition.

Forgery is a strong word. Everyone who writes slant things to their world view. It may be unconscious but it happens. This is the reason with my Witness background that I stayed away from any topic with a Witness slant when I took New Testament. My very accomplished Catholic classmates wrote about Catholicism and their grades dropped. The only people who were accurate concerning Jesus in a seminar I took were Orthodox Jewish males. Our cutlure is innundated with Jesus stuff. I would say the process of the gospels and other writings was valid. No deceit was intended. They were eastern and did not obssess about facts as we do. They were not deliberately lying in my view. Reflecting your culture is not lying. Luke wanted Roman approval for Christianity so he emphasizes certain narratives that Matthew, writing for Christian Jews, did not.

Revelation is not fraud. Metaphor is important. The images in Revelation are nonsensical if taken literally. Without knowing numerology, the dates and "666" etc. are just crazy. I hated and feared this book. Hearing it mentioned would give me stomach pain. One of the first things I did when I found out about a different way of Bible study was to buy a commentary. Now I see it as pure beauty.

I no longer believe everything in the Bible just b/c it is in the Bible. My experience is that is so much complex and ultimately more truthful when you take culture, language, and history into account. These authors were not demigods. They were like you and me.

98

The "WOW!!" moment...Theocratic Ministry School was a sham!

by Terry in

jw
friends

i just remembered something from long ago..... i moved to california in 1974 after i had been in "the truth" for 11 years, having full-time pioneered and also having served time in federal prison over the so-called christian neutrality issue.. i felt completely confident that my bible education was the best on planet earth.

i had honed my skills by door to door preaching, discussion, arguments and attendance at the theocratic ministry school.. i began working as an artist in a huge company that manufactured all kinds of art, sculpture and wall hanging.

the head of the artists was a wonderful young man, skilled artist and devout christian who took me under his wing.

Band on the Run

The calculations of revenue coming in every year are stunning. When people would write that it was $, I'd say what money.

Why don't publishers know the exact cost of production and shipping? People might see the need to donate more.

Does anyone know what is done with this income stream? I read that they invested in a munitions company. If I were still a Witness, I'd reply that we are part of Christ's body and have a right to know the financials. We know far more about the Vatican. Little children aren't supposed to worry about finances. Are there internal audits to make certain GB members aren't stealing from the corporation?

The most dangerous person is one who does not know how little they know. The more I learn, the more I'm overwhelmed by what is impossible to know. Sometimes I feel I place too much empahsis on Bible knowledge and little facts. Music is just as important, in my view. All the arts are important. Building homes, a la Habitat for Humanity is important. Doctors Without Borders.

The striking thing about finding this forum, besides the validation that other people hate the WTBTS with a passion, is the realization that it is a money making cult. My family's religion was no better than Moonies or Scientology. I knew about the crazy health schemes from Rutherford times. I was aware of the regitimation and control but not how systematic and planned it was.

56

Was the Bible forged? Author claims some New Testament books were written by 'people pretending to be apostles'

by whereami in

was the bible forged?

author claims some new testament books were written by 'people pretending to be apostles'.

by daily mail reporter.

Band on the Run

Im reading a book currently I bought by Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright about the historical Jesus and development of Christianity. It is substantial. The Bible is hot now b/c of the Da Vinci Code. Many times I buy books about the historical Jesus and then curse myself for not writing a popular book myself. On the other hand, these books share certain historical facts that were almost impossible to know outside of certain circles.

I completely agree that the Bible did not descend from heaven and that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the gospels did not write anything in the NT canon. To call that fact a "forgery" is inaccurate both as a definition of forgery and the connotations of forgery. They followed certain writing genres and traditions with their culture. Looking back with my bias, how can I judge what their intent was. Illiterate people can be very sophisticated and knowledgeable. It is an anthropolic fact. I certainly have trouble understanding it. One of the problems of Biblical interpretation is jumping across thousands of years of history and cultural changes. A forgery is deceit. They weren't fooling anyone.

There are way too many books of this type on the market. It would be interesting to trace the publishing houses. I purchased Gnostics for Dummies or something similar early this year. It is a popular book about Gnostics. A college junior could have written it. It is well organized and easy to understand. I just wish it contained a bit more nuance. People seem to hunger for Bible knowledge. When I attend Bible studies, people seem to fall into churched and unchurched. I am shocked how little Bible literacy exists today so maybe the pendulum swinging with all these books is a good idea.

36

My Wife is reading "Learn From a Great Teacher" to my oldest daughter.

by garyneal in

in the past, i've tried reasoning with my wife concerning the reading of religious materials to our children but the reasoning is not getting through.

she believes that since my oldest daughter prefers church to the kingdom hall (no surprise) that in order to provide any kind of 'true' religious instruction she must read wt material geared to the kiddies.

in the past, i reasoned that if she insists on reading material to her that will ultimately trash my way of life then i could do the same.

Band on the Run

iI would explode. Whatever money I had would go to getting a divorce with custody primarily with me. I feel so sorry for your daughter, watching a tennis match at an age when she can not understand what is going on. I recall how I felt as a young kid. My mom let us celebrate our birthdays in exchange for our silence towards our JW relatives. It was weird having secrets about normal things. Knowing that I was free to celebrate but must pretend that I did not did bad things to my head. I was too young to understand that all members of a family do not share beliefs. My mother somehow made me feel ashamed. They didn't have to hide their JW bs.

It is not the actual event, a birthday party. The underlying theme of deceit and shame continues to this day. Altho I've been out for decades, and way out in my sister's and doctor's estimation, I still have trouble asserting myself. My people pleasing ways embarass me.

Yet I know many Jewish-Christian marriages from being in NY. I don't sense shame there but they respect each other very much. The problem I see is that the Witnesses are relentless. Grey does not exist for them. What five year old is sophisticated enough to understand color theory?

Your wife's inconsistency even makes it worse, rather than better. Of course, I don't believe in joint custody for divorced couples. If you could get along to do it properly, you would not need a divorce. This must hurt b/c it is about your daughter and not just you.

25

Did Jesus make wine or grape juice

by jam in

jw
friends

proverbs 23;31-33, commands, "do not look on the wine when it is red,.

when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly.

bites like a serpent, and stings like an adder (viper).

Band on the Run

I heard a sermon about the Eucharist once that impressed me. Obviously, this is not a JW KH. The dean of the cathedral noted that we do bring gifts of juice and wheat to the offertory. God created fruit and wheat. Bread and wine require human action. He said it was symbolic that our relationship with God is a two-way one. I never would have ever thought of this in a million year.

24

Searching for non bias news and information sources.

by Joliette in

jw
friends

is there any good ones?.

Band on the Run

It is impossible for nonbiased news. My newspapers are The New York Times and Wall Street Journal, sometimes I read the Washington Post for pressing presidential or Congressional news as an addition to the Times. The Times is what every public official reads. It has enormous imptce. The Times has a definite liberal stance but it is not unrestrained liberalism. It is the newspaper of record. Obama reads the NY Times, as did Bush and Reagan.

My TV sources are CNN and PBS. Charlie Rose on PBS is utterly fascinating. I also watch C-Span regularly. They cover public stuff as a service. Washington Week is also good.

For international news and perspective, The Economist is priceless. It is very expensive. Foreign Affairs is crucial if that is your interest.

Vanity Fair and the New Yorker are also good sources for me.

This is the Eastern media. I find them very fair and balance. Yet I always strive to remember their mind set is the same as mine. To balance this fact, I may read National Review, the Wall St. Journal. I will not degrade myself by reading Fox News. Their commentators are idiots who know better. George Will is a decent conservative source. David Brooks is ok, too. I try to expose myself to conservative and libertarian thinkers who have the same great quality as the New York Times, et al but have a different bias.

I adore the NY Times. As a teenager, I walked up tall hills for quite a distance to purchase a copy. Educated NYers adore the Times (but we supplement it with the Daily News or Post if something major is happening in the city.) . Everyone in DC reads The Times. A friend joked that New Yorkers don't have a thought or opinion in their heads until the Times tells them what to think. This is very true.

98

The "WOW!!" moment...Theocratic Ministry School was a sham!

by Terry in

jw
friends

i just remembered something from long ago..... i moved to california in 1974 after i had been in "the truth" for 11 years, having full-time pioneered and also having served time in federal prison over the so-called christian neutrality issue.. i felt completely confident that my bible education was the best on planet earth.

i had honed my skills by door to door preaching, discussion, arguments and attendance at the theocratic ministry school.. i began working as an artist in a huge company that manufactured all kinds of art, sculpture and wall hanging.

the head of the artists was a wonderful young man, skilled artist and devout christian who took me under his wing.

Band on the Run

My father, the family Bethelite, paritcular expertise was in baiting Roman Catholics. One would have thought the Witness and Protestants were the same with the ferociousness he displayed belittling CAtholics. With very rudimentary knowledge and before Vatican II, he demolished the local parish people. No one converted. They just could not match his expertise. He spent countless hours preparing his antiCatholic venom. A Jesuit seminarian started to work there for a short while. He was ecstatic. A Jesuit! What a catch. So they both prepared lectures about the Witness translation of "soul." My father, despiser of CAtholics, bodyguard to Rutherford and Knorr, returned from work ashen faced and took to his bed. He told my mother that not only were the Catholics correct but that he was trounced. This was a major incident in our lives.

I learned nothing from Ministry School. Because I was female and needed a householder for demonstration purposes, it was very awkard. I could not make a direct statement. My brother had a much easier time. One thing I remain curious about. We had access to all the old WTs b/c of family. How did new converts research their presentations? It was a very poor KH.

Fundamentally, I did not leave the Witnesses over any doctrine. The lack of love and hatred of decent worldly people revolted me. Meetings were an alternative to being beaten to a pulp. Their fruits or lack thereof were the key. I did not care what doctrines were. Love existed in many forms. They were zombies. I was not accepted b/c I was white.

College was the second revelation. For some reason, I still do not know I enrolled in New Testament. My professor, Elaine Pagels of Gnostic fame, was only a few years younger than we were. She wore the shortest mini skirts I ever saw. In her spare time, she did the NY art scene happenings. She was warm but kept barriers to being a prof. We had to read the gospels in consecutive verses for entire books at a time. The first night of reading the Bible this way brought many stunning developments. I saw the Witnesses lie about four different topics. These weren't grey areas. It was black and white. This surprised me. I kept running to the pay phone from the library to announce it to my family. During my severe illness, I turned to the Bible and read the Bible with the skills I learned in college. I always made certain I read no commentaries until I ran through it by myself and asked what I thought it meant. I truly fear reading some elegant commentary and have it influence my initial take.

With Vatican II, even the CAtholics are well read. I've taken sophisticated courses at Episcopal churches, including Koine Greek. Most parishoners know the Church Fathers and have read Augustine, Merton, Bonhoeffer and Barth. They understand the geopolitical problems 1st Century Christians faced. This surprised me, too. I am so happy to study now. Others certainly look happy and excited. Sometimes, a priest leads. Priests never lecture or tell. They faciliate discussion and act as a ready reference. Often when questions are asked, the response is I don't know. I adore those "I don't know."s

6

religous art and its repercussions

by Aussie Oz in

jw
friends

wife is an artist.

she has done several pieces taking the piss out of christianity.

reaction?

Band on the Run

First, did Picasso care about what the Fascists thought when he painted Guernica.

I find it very sad and disappointing that people who were once part of a persecuted religion are willing to condemn an entire religion b/c of the actions of a miniscule of a miniscule. Islam does not promote violence. It never did and never will. What about the many Christians, some of them artists, who were burned at the Inquisition for slightly different views than their brethern in Christ. Love one another as I have loved you.

Many Moslem Americans were slaughtered at the World Trade Center on September 11th. The World Trade Center and Pentagon were such small events compared to the many more thousands Bin Laden slaughtered in the Middle East. If anything, he was far more brutal to Moslems. This is an ideological struggle, not a religious one. How can we begin to defeat Al-Qaeda if we are so ignorant about who our enemy is? Bin Laden and his ilk love such comments. In our fervor to smite the other, we smite ourselves by losing our values which make our culture truly great.

Hitler was Christian. Therefore, if you are Christian, you murdered millions of people. Converting Al-Qaeda to Islam is what Bin Laden tried to do. There are serious issues at stake. They should not be obscured.

Now I need to go back to my celebrations. Frankly, I do not feel I should be killed, raped , tortured or imprisoned because I wear a cross and Hitler was Christian. Christian history is deplorable. If Islam has had its bloody moments, we succeeded them.

38

June 15th WT ( again ) WT Society Bashes College & Earning a Living

by flipper in

jw
friends

sorry for the redundancy of this being the 3rd article out of this magazine i've made a thread on- but i felt it was important to share these quotes from the aricle titled " make your way successful - how ?

" i think you'll see the extreme dissing of higher education here and guilt tactics used to discourage jw members from getting a college education or earning a decent living.. under the subheading " higher education " ?

it states, " a christian has a scriptural obligation to care for his family, and that includes providing for their material needs.

Band on the Run

I would think they would want people in good jobs. Imagine the skills publishers could bring to the Society. Donations should increase. Someone should raise their hand whenever this is discussed and ask why mere sisters have been sent to law school, admitted to the bar, which requires an oath, become enmeshed in worldly failed justice and why brothers can't do a semester of community college.

My mother raised me to almost worship education. I've mentioned before that she was expelled from high school at fourteen for flag salute issues. It dashed her dreams for a good future. This antieducation , antiintellectual movement has always been active in American history. Sometimes it has been a strong force. There was a group called the Know-Nothings. Look at Palin's supporters. Fundamentalist Christians are anti-intellectual. They have their very mediocre Bible colleges. Yet the Ivies were started as divinity schools for the most part. Maybe it is one extreme or the other. I've wanted to know more about this but never took the time to research it.

13

Jewelry advice

by TD in

as every married man knows (or should know) anniversaries where the number ends in either zero or five are more special and important than all the others.

your 20th is somehow more special than the 19th) anyhow, i've got one of those "magic number" anniversaries coming up and am thinking about jewelry.

any advice for getting the most bang for your buck?

Band on the Run

I'm addicted to Tiffany's blue boxes. If you live near a Tiffany's or Cartier's, you could purchase stationery, whatever the cheapest item is in the store. Stationery or crystal most of the time. Buy jewelry some place else and stick in the box. Problem is she may want the actual jewelry box. I'd love a gift box just by itself. Crystal is affordable.

A friend who had money went to Tiffany's. Some German lady with her husband was buying clunky pieces. They were waited on first b/c no man was present with us. She had to catch a plane to San Francisco so we walked a few blocks uptown to the Diamond District. It is not glamorous at all. Any romantic conceptions about diamonds go down the drain. She bought the same ring without the Tiffany name and saved $7,000.

I hate mall jewelry and Cartier, etc. is definitely not affordable. If anyone knows where to go in the middle, I'd like to know. The mall jewelry is so bad, I'd rather put that money towards a better piece.

I've heard good word of mouth about Blue Nile.

Have you thought Hermes scarf, Louis-Vuitton, Chanel, etc.